The Relapse Interrupted Podcast With Dr Raul J. Rodriguez, With Guest Marc Kantor. Season 1 Episode 1

0:00Well, hello, welcome back to Relapse Interrupted.

0:13I'm Dr. Rodriguez.

0:14I'm the founder of Healing Sky.

0:17I'm also the medical director of the Delray Center for Healing, and I am a double board

0:20certified psychiatrist, and I have my co-hosts here, September Miller, LMHC, and the director

0:26of Outreach and Business Development for the Delray Center.

0:30And today, our esteemed guest is Mark Anter.

0:33Good morning.

0:34Thank you for joining us, an interventionist, extremely good interventionist.

0:40So thank you.

0:41Thank you for coming.

0:42Thank you.

0:43Thank you for coming.

0:44It's a pleasure to meet you, well, to have the full, full meeting.

0:46Yes.

0:47September, it was funny.

0:49This has never happened before.

0:50So I'm there.

0:51I got to the restaurant first, you know, just after work, going to dinner, you know, waiting

0:56for my wife to show up there.

0:57I was on a call, and I walk in, and it's like, this family's looking at me, and, you know,

1:00I get that a lot, you know, that people, usually it's like a patient, and I'm there looking

1:03over there, and I'm thinking, I don't, I don't remember.

1:06We thought you were a politician.

1:07I know.

1:08I was funny, like, I think it's because of these cufflinks, I think that gives that politician

1:13vibe.

1:14But as many of them are looking at me, I'm looking at each of them, thinking, wait, I

1:16don't recognize her.

1:17I don't recognize her.

1:18Like, I didn't, like, I don't tweet any of these people.

1:19Like, what, I'm hoping I didn't do anything offensive, that they recognize me for something,

1:22that you come over, and you say who you are, like, oh, my goodness, you're gonna be on

1:26my podcast next week.

1:28And I just thought it was, it was, it was so random, and so funny.

1:31Good restaurant, though.

1:32Yeah, Rancho Rito.

1:33So, if you're in the Boca area, Rancho Rito is a very good Colombian restaurant.

1:37We both approve.

1:38Yes.

1:39We both recommend it highly.

1:40Yep.

1:41It's on our favorite list.

1:42Yeah.

1:43Yep.

1:44Excellent.

1:45Well, thank you for joining us.

1:46Thanks for having me.

1:47So, so, you're an interventionist.

1:48Yes.

1:49So, how long have you done this for?

1:50I first started doing interventions, or getting my foot in the water of it, in 2014.

1:56Okay.

1:57Yeah.

1:58So, coming up in about 12 years.

2:00Oh, wow.

2:01But it's not my first career.

2:02My first career was in commercial real estate.

2:04Oh.

2:05And I like to say that I am a failed commercial real estate broker.

2:09I did that for about 21 years.

2:12The first three years were good, the next 18 were tough.

2:17But I had to stay in it just to make sure.

2:19You know how we do.

2:20Yeah.

2:21We doubled down.

2:22We doubled down.

2:23So, yeah.

2:24Yes.

2:25We humans double down.

2:26And then I reached a, what I would call a crisis of faith.

2:29And I said, I just can't do it anymore.

2:32It's not working for me.

2:33I need to do something different.

2:35And it was actually my then 15-year-old daughter who said to me, dad, why don't you do intervention?

2:41Really?

2:42Yeah.

2:43She came up with that?

2:44Yeah.

2:45Yeah.

2:46And I had started to get interested in it earlier.

2:50And I took some of the certification courses.

2:54I said, I'm going to do this.

2:56But the way the human spirit is, there's fear.

2:59And fear would always bring me back to the, to not what was working, but to what I knew.

3:06And I had reached a point where I'd gone through, is when we moved down here in 2018.

3:14And I was, went through a long funk.

3:19A good three or four months of, I don't know what I'm going to do.

3:24And I knew that, you know, I'm in recovery.

3:29I knew I couldn't drink.

3:32I can't kill myself and I can't have an affair.

3:34Those are the rules, right?

3:35Okay.

3:36Good rules.

3:37Good rules.

3:38You can't come back from this.

3:39And one of them, you really can't come back.

3:42And we, her and I were having dinner one night.

3:46And she just looked at me out of the blue and she said, dad, why don't you start doing

3:49interventions?

3:50And it just hit me.

3:51I said, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm going to do.

3:54And that was it right there and then.

3:57Really?

3:58Yeah.

3:59I mean, for a 15 year old to come up with something like that, that's, well, incredibly

4:03like thoughtful and insightful.

4:05Yeah.

4:06I mean, how did she come up with that?

4:07Well, she'd seen that I had an interest in it.

4:10She and I had taken some courses and she was very aware, her and I are very in tune with

4:14each other.

4:15We still are.

4:16We're very close.

4:17And she could read my emotions.

4:20She still can.

4:23I can't hide anything from her.

4:25If I call her and within a second, she'll say, what's wrong?

4:29And I'll say, oh, no, no, nothing, nothing's wrong.

4:32What's wrong?

4:33And I know until I share what's wrong or what's on my mind, the conversation is not going

4:39to continue.

4:40She knows.

4:41And so she, she was very intuitive and she, she knew how I was feeling, what I was going

4:45through.

4:46No matter, it's very hard to hide.

4:49I'm one of those people who, you know how I feel very quick, very hard for me to pretend

4:57to feel a different way or put on a mask.

5:00I'm very authentic like that.

5:02I joke that if I were a character in a movie, the killer's coming, the killer's inside the

5:09house with you, I'd be dead because I would say, don't say anything, the killer's with

5:15you.

5:16And I was going to turn to the guy and say, oh my God, you're the killer?

5:19I can't believe it.

5:21So I really have no ability to hide.

5:24I have no poker face.

5:26And so I would say rule four is don't gamble.

5:30Yeah, that's that one.

5:32I'm a big anti-gambler.

5:34Well, I think the other gamblers wouldn't believe it.

5:36They'd be like, oh, this can't be true.

5:38He's not telling us everything.

5:39This must be his poker face.

5:41Yeah, it can't be that easy.

5:42Yeah.

5:43Well, no, I'm either have a very difficult time.

5:47I've gotten better.

5:48I've gotten older in that I don't have to react to my emotion.

5:54When I was younger and I was before sobriety or new in sobriety, you just feel like a dog

6:00that's being thrown a ball.

6:02I mean, just wherever the ball goes, you go, you have no ability to say, I'm not going

6:05to chase that ball.

6:06And that ball is not for me.

6:07You just chase it.

6:09And I think one of the things you do learn in sobriety and I think in maturity in general

6:14is that you don't have to go to every fight that you're brought to, that you're asked

6:21to come to.

6:22You don't have to.

6:23We don't have to discuss it now.

6:26One of the most important lessons I ever learned was from my first sponsor.

6:32I was new in sobriety and it was the last time my wife and I had gotten into a really

6:36big fight.

6:39I didn't know that he was yelling at each other.

6:42And I called him and he said, had it ever occurred to you that you could listen to whatever

6:46she has to say no matter how wrong she may be and just listen and not respond and then

6:51go away?

6:52And I, no, no, that had never occurred to me that if that was an option in life, that

6:57you could hear what somebody has to say, not respond.

7:00Thank them for sharing that and go away and think about it and come back the next day.

7:05And what I found that is most of the time, there's no reason to ever go back to have

7:12the second follow-up discussion.

7:14They don't remember what they were upset about.

7:17You don't remember.

7:18And it doesn't matter.

7:20It's a small thing.

7:21It was a small thing.

7:22It was a momentary thing.

7:23And if you just let it pass, it will pass.

7:27Someone told me early on, your problems will die in the glass.

7:31I think that's true.

7:33And it does make sense because a lot of people fight over, you know, small things and they

7:38make, they react to a small thing and then it feels like a big thing.

7:46But really what's big is the reaction.

7:48The reaction is big.

7:49The problem is small or trivial.

7:51And then if you have somebody else who reacts back, who mirrors the first person's perhaps

7:57overreaction and you have them mirroring another overreaction and then it becomes about, you're

8:04fighting about the reaction.

8:05Right.

8:06Like I'm mad at you because you're mad at me and you cursed at me and you said all these

8:10bad names over whatever small thing.

8:13And sometimes you even lose sight of what you even started fighting about.

8:16Yeah.

8:17You're just fighting about fighting.

8:18I completely agree with the argument then because you're mad.

8:23I'm really mad.

8:25Or we had an early marriage.

8:28Oh, you're depressed.

8:29I'm really depressed.

8:30I'm much more depressed than you think you are.

8:33And it's crazy because the truth is, you know, I don't want any of that.

8:40You know, I don't want to be depressed and I don't want to be angry.

8:43And there does come a point where you just say, I'm giving it all up.

8:47I'm turning it all over.

8:48I'm giving it all up.

8:49I'm not doing that anymore.

8:50And I think it works.

8:52I think that mind shift does work a lot.

8:55And I'm not talking about people who are clinically depressed.

8:58I don't want it.

8:59You know, that's a different, I'm just talking about, you know, people that fall into circumstances

9:06like myself.

9:07And that's the emotion of the day where that's the crisis of the day.

9:13I went to a talk not too long ago about a MAGO theory.

9:18And MAGO theory is, you know, about is best described as you marry your unfinished business.

9:26And this person that was teaching the, giving the talk was really very good.

9:33And she said, everything in life is 90-10.

9:35And that really stuck with me.

9:37And the example was the dishes on the sink.

9:42Come on, there are dishes on the sink.

9:44There's always dishes in the sink, especially with kids.

9:47Right.

9:48And I'm a minimalist OCD, right?

9:53So, but I came from a family of, you know, second generation.

10:00Holocaust survivors, a German-Polish family, and everything I was taught as a

10:10place and there's organization and not taking care of things which have been

10:17generously given to you is high disrespect, right? So I walked into their

10:22dishes in the sink and it immediately triggers. And yes, 10% of that is about

10:30their dishes in the sink and 90% of that is my upfront because of

10:36what the dishes in the sink symbolize or what I think they mean to me. They mean

10:42you don't respect them. I'm not. But that's not true. You know, they're just dishes in

10:48the sink. But that was kind of some of the talk and I do try to remember when I

10:53get upset about something or a reaction that it is 90-10. 10% is about that you

10:58relate. 90% is that my upbringing tells me that you don't respect me.

11:05You're constantly working on yourself and you're constantly going to different

11:09educational events and using your wisdom and everything in your interventions.

11:15Sometimes. You know, it's so much easier said than done.

11:23But I think what's true is the struggles never, you know, we're never

11:27healed, we're never fixed. We're always a work in progress.

11:32Well, definitely. The way I always see it in life, it's you're either

11:37improving, you're either growing or you're in decline. There's no such a thing as

11:42OK, I've arrived. I'm good. I can just coast here.

11:45Yeah. I don't believe that exists. I believe if you find yourself in that

11:49situation, it's a psychological trap. I believe if you think that, OK, I'm

11:54cruising, really, you're in decline. Yeah. You just don't realize it.

11:58Yeah. So, it's either you're ascending or descending. There is no flat you have.

12:01So, I always promote and I always try to even with myself and for my clients to

12:06promote, always try to keep growing. Because if you know you're growing, if

12:09you're growing, you know you're not in decline. So, just keep growing, keep

12:13growing, keep growing, keep adapting, you know, physically, mentally, spiritually,

12:17every which way. Just keep growing and that'll keep you out of decline.

12:20If you think it's leveling out, really, you're already pointing down.

12:23And if you think you're in decline, then you're like this. You're really in decline.

12:26Yeah. You're hurtling towards the earth at speed.

12:30I completely agree with that. And there's a saying in the AA that you're either

12:35moving closer to a drink or further away from a drink. You're never stagnant.

12:40You're never. But, you know, you're always moving.

12:47Yeah. Yeah. It makes perfect sense.

12:50So, yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah, it's true.

12:53It's true. Yeah. Good. So, all right. So, interventions.

12:57So, you see, you picked on, decided to do interventions, which is for people, for

13:01the audience, I don't know if they know, is not easy.

13:05You're going into one of the most difficult situations.

13:09You have a life that is at risk and you have somebody who has a dangerous habit.

13:15And at the same time, the other, they don't see it.

13:18They're not willing. There's an army of psychological defenses that are up.

13:23That's preventing them from taking the next step.

13:27And the families and friends, they don't they're at their wit's end.

13:31They don't know what to do. And then I guess they call you.

13:35Yeah. So. Right.

13:37I mean, so you're you're in a situation where.

13:42If it's because it's an addiction intervention, it's one thing.

13:45If the mental health intervention, it's another thing.

13:48But when it comes to addiction, you're walking into a situation where the

13:53person's brain has literally been hijacked by it as has been

13:59reshuffled their priorities in life, like like decks of cards.

14:04And they're that's why you see someone on the street and they're addicted.

14:09And how they're without shelter or they're

14:14they're in a tentative situation as far as food and money.

14:19You know, and to us in the unaddicted brain, how simple the solution would be.

14:26You know, you have to you have to go to treatment or detox or you do something.

14:32There are so many free things you can do.

14:36But the the brain.

14:39Believe as has been the deck has been reshuffled and the brain believes that.

14:46Getting and using their drug is survival and that if they don't get it, they won't survive.

14:51When I was in treatment at the Betty Ford Center, I went to the real Betty Ford Center

14:55back in the day when Mrs. Ford was still alive.

14:59There was a guy who came and spoke and his name is Kevin McCauley.

15:03He used to call himself the addiction doctor, but now he's a fellow at Meadows in Wickenburg.

15:09And he. And this was early on, I mean, it's a couple of days and he he does this whole

15:16presentation, he says, you walk into a room and you see a chair.

15:22But before you even recognize that that's a chair, your midbrain, your survival brain

15:27has already said.

15:30Is that is that a threat to my life?

15:33Do I do I do I do I kill it, do I eat it, or do I approach it?

15:39It goes through the the the very basic thing, right?

15:45And then your midbrain says, well, no, it's neither of them.

15:48It's safe.

15:49It hands it over to your frontal cortex, your frontal, your executive function, your frontal

15:56cortex.

15:57And it says, well, no, the bill is comfortable.

16:01Maybe I'll sit down.

16:03But when you're addicted, your midbrain, the the frontal cortex is offline.

16:09It never gets that.

16:11Maybe this is a bad idea, right?

16:13It's just right to it.

16:15The the that executive functioning is not there.

16:19The disease is in control.

16:21The number one priority.

16:22And I remember saying that I remember this very clearly, like it was yesterday, he said

16:27that you feel like if I don't get my drug.

16:32Really bad things are going to happen, in fact, I could die.

16:36And and I remember sitting there and I said, yes, yes, that's that's exactly how I feel

16:43when I was out of out of pills.

16:46I was a doctor shopper.

16:47So when I was out of pills, the I would be in incredible anxiety.

16:52Nothing else mattered.

16:54It was like a tunnel vision came over me.

16:57And the only thing that mattered was I had I had to get more.

17:00And then you have the family on the other side saying, well, just stop.

17:03If you just stop, everything gets better.

17:06Everything goes back to the way it was.

17:08And yeah.

17:09And the person who's using is like, well, no.

17:11Yeah, I can't.

17:13You don't understand.

17:14Yeah.

17:15Yeah.

17:16You know, I, you know.

17:17I if I if I stop, I'll die.

17:19But that's what the the brain has is is telling you.

17:24That's what your midbrain is telling you, your survival brain is telling you if you

17:26stop, you'll die.

17:28It's not true.

17:29And so when you're doing all that, all this to say when you're doing an intervention,

17:34is that you're in a you're up.

17:36That's what you're up against.

17:38And when we do a pretty extensive pre-intervention training and meeting with the family and I

17:46tell them that.

17:48We go in there and, you know, here's the drink in the middle of the table and your addicts

17:54here and the families there and the families can tell you this is the problem and you're

18:01going to say, no, no, no, that's the solution.

18:04So that's the story.

18:07We don't even agree on what we're looking for, right?

18:11And what you hear as the addict is the addicted person hears us saying is you have one solution,

18:19you have one solution, and we're going to take that solution away.

18:24And so their response is, how am I going to survive?

18:28We're going to take the one thing that comforts you away from you.

18:31Yeah.

18:32And there's one thing.

18:33And that's what we want to take away from you.

18:35Right.

18:36That's terrifying.

18:38So for them, it's an all hands on deck, defend this at any cost, because if they take it

18:45away, you'll die.

18:46So do you feel like when you go into an intervention, I guess what I'm saying is, do you ever time

18:52it?

18:53Do you say, OK, well, this person just woke up and they're probably as sober as they're

18:57ever going to be.

18:58Maybe I can talk some sense into them now.

19:00Or do you just go in whenever and do your thing?

19:05So you're exactly on point.

19:06So I like to do interventions early in the morning.

19:09I like to go to the person for a number of reasons.

19:13One is we know where they are.

19:16They haven't had a chance to start drinking or using yet.

19:19You know, sometimes they're still drunk from the night before.

19:24But you know, we want to do everything we can to control what we can control, the environment,

19:31the time and things like that, because there's a lot we don't have control over.

19:35So let's control the things we can.

19:38Most of the most of the people that I interview, you know, they're not visibly drunk or intoxicated

19:44or high or when we get there, when we sit down with them, they are mostly people that

19:52are mostly functioning.

19:56Maybe they've lost their job, maybe.

19:58But they're not.

20:00not falling over drunk they're not they know what's going on they're able to sit

20:04down and have a conversation and it's just their life for so long has been

20:11bumping along the bottom circling the drain as as we like to say a lot of our

20:18clients are men and women who seemingly have it all but their wife and kids can't

20:27stay on the side and they're unhappy you know they have the car they have the

20:33partner at a law firm they own their own business to have money nobody tells them

20:39what to do but they walk in the door and the look of

20:44stain on their wife and their face undeniable but most of the clients we

20:50have are I'm being hired by parents intervene on their children now that

20:57their children could be 14 or could be 44 could be 64

21:03I have a lot of clients where the parents are in their 80s and they're

21:06still dealing with their their kids Wow yeah yeah so I interesting on the timing

21:17so I can see how in the morning you have some advantages you're gonna have

21:22the lowest if you get him right when they wake up after a period of forced

21:27abstinence because they've been sleeping so you have a window where the brain

21:31will be a little rested so that'll help so physiologically it'll be a little

21:36more stable you have a window where the blood levels of whatever substance it is

21:40is gonna be at its lowest that's gonna help they're gonna be hard yeah but

21:44fundamentally what you're dealing with and this you know for our audience to

21:47understand is that addiction but it does definitely kill brain cells but

21:52functionally at its worst moments from day to day yeah parts of the brain that

22:00are they're not dead but they're inactive essential birth rate they're

22:03inactive and you were referring to on the frontal lobes you know like the part

22:08we'd like to target is the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which is the part of

22:13the brain that is responsible for assessing how bad would it be if it's

22:20for responsible for assessing the severity of a consequence and it's which

22:25that thought that kind of thinking is an advanced form of thinking it's one of

22:30our most advanced brain functions and like anything else if you think of your

22:34car the modern cars have all these fancy electronics but what breaks first the

22:40fancy electronic like the old-school cars that are like roll your windows

22:44down I mean they're kind of a little rough but they don't break yeah right

22:48they don't break there but they're solid the newer cars have all this fancy

22:51technology but it breaks it's very advanced it's gonna be a little more

22:54delicate the same thing applies to the brain where these advanced parts of the

22:58brain they have great functions but they are also the most vulnerable to

23:04mechanical or physiologic disruption and yet the more primitive parts of the

23:09brain the reptilian brain the parts are responsible for you know for eating for

23:13breathing all that those parts because they've been borrowed from lower animals

23:18over millions of years of evolution those are hardwired that's like your

23:22your 67 Chevy with rolled-down windows but it's all analog but there's no

23:28electronics on it whatsoever but I think is like solid that's your apex predator

23:33exactly yeah and that part is in it it's in our brains that's our part is there

23:37that we borrowed it from these apex predators that's what gets the species

23:41to survive at the most basic level and that part will stay online so really and

23:47for me up for viewers and you know families to understand what so what

23:52you're up against is you're dealing with the parts of the brain that are still

23:56active are a lot of parts are borrowed from an apex predator the parts of the

24:00brain that are most in tuned and wired for sheer survival and the parts of the

24:08brain that you reason with the most are partially absent you know so you're so

24:14part of your job is really to assess okay how much of the advanced part of

24:18the brain is available to me right now for me to converse with we're gonna

24:21speak with and then you do what you can with what you have right and make the

24:26most of it right but I want to clear something up so you know the the process

24:30that I use that I've developed it's not necessarily a back and forth discussion

24:37and and and I tell families that if I've we do a two-day process day one with

24:44family day two we we intervene that if I've done my job correctly on day one I

24:50should be very be doing very little indeed more or less just kind of

24:56directing or you know a little tap here a little tap there just kind of

25:00inducting a little bit they're doing right is they're the people that have

25:07that connection they're the people that hold the con the ability to implementing

25:10consequences or affect change in this person's life you know we did I don't I

25:17think the idea that we're gonna sit down and talk you into going to treatment is

25:24isn't as nice you don't let me you back you look I gotta be off 22 years of

25:30sobriety in a couple weeks and I and I and you want me to do a pros and cons

25:36list for you what sober life has gotten me even on the bad day compared to what

25:42it was costing me it it's an impressive list right I mean there's no question

25:47how much better my life is and how much better your life will be but I don't

25:52know that you can hear that so I so our process my process is we we we have the

25:59family lay out where they are so you know so you're an adult and you have

26:05agents they I hear that a lot well I want to make my own decision I'm an

26:09adult I can make them yeah okay that that's true however the decisions you're

26:14making right now are killing you and they're killing the people around you so

26:17you know maybe not but yes essentially legally you have agency you're an adult

26:23but don't forget please don't forget that your family members here your wife

26:28your children your your mom and dad your whoever your best friend your boss they

26:33have agency too you're not the only one here with age so at the end of this

26:38meeting you're gonna do what you want and we appreciate that but please know

26:42that they're gonna do what they want right so that may mean that we're no

26:47longer funding the credit card we're no longer paying the rent we're no longer

26:53you know fill in the blank right you know one of the things I tell people is

26:59never threaten a consequence you're not prepared to carry through you're not

27:05now prepared to implement this the minute you don't implement it your word

27:08means nothing so a big thing is a wife might say to me well I'm not I can't

27:12throw him out of the house I'm not I'm not ready to tell him to leave the house

27:17say okay that's fair are you willing to take the case yes that I'm on that's

27:23easier because that's within my control right well that works too right don't

27:29you're deciding not to go I'm leaving with the kids or I'm leaving don't call

27:36me if you if you decide differently contact Mark but don't call me and and

27:42those and those those that works every you know it's not a fight it never

27:47dissolves into a screaming match it's an orderly process and the way we read

27:54letters yeah and reading the letters is important I know it might feel cliche

27:59and people have seen on TV but as much as you think you know what you want to

28:03say you know when you're looking in the mirror and you're talking yourself in

28:07the bathroom and you're Perry Mason and you get into the room you don't you've

28:11got enough you don't remember right I mean you know how many times does this

28:16happen I'm gonna tell them and I'm gonna get you get in front of them you get

28:21nervous you're nervous you need to be able to follow just read what's on the

28:26paper and that's that's really important and we really flush that out together and

28:31we go around the room and we do it in an order which I where the circle is

28:35getting tighter and tighter we might start with the friend of a family you

28:40know with good family friend who's just simply saying hey hey buddy you know I

28:44love you and I know you're struggling and I want the best for you simple

28:48message right you know then the next person maybe it's the cousin says hey

28:54you know on up together I've seen you I see how you're declining and we're here

28:58to get you help okay so you're you're giving them more and more messages go

29:01around the room so they're getting chance tackle make they know what's

29:05happening but it gives them a chance to think about what's coming and then maybe

29:09a third person is talking about going to treatment day right and by the time you

29:14get down to the heavy which is could be mom at mom or dad depending on what the

29:19relationship is or or or the wife or the husband who's saying and then they're

29:25passed you know you're passed and the difference between parents and husbands

29:29and wives are parents are scared spouses are pissed well they say anger comes

29:36from her yeah yeah the parent parents are afraid something's gonna happen to

29:41my head I'm gonna lose my kid they're gonna die and happen and and and the and

29:45the the wife is passed because she's probably been betrayed she's been lied

29:49to is how to you know a marriage is a mutually beneficial relationship we're

29:57in our relationships because we've been everyone benefits from

30:00But if you suddenly did not benefit from being in a relationship with your husband anymore, there's no benefit.

30:07Why? Why? Why be there? As opposed to with your kids, you know, it's sacrificial.

30:14You're doing it all for them anyway, you know, mostly right until there.

30:19So it's accurate. So it's sacrificial.

30:22There's a little bit of a different approach to it.

30:25Well, parents also, that's kind of a permanent relationship.

30:29There's no real dissolution of no actual real dissolution of, you know, parenthood.

30:34Whereas, I mean, a marriage, you have dissolution.

30:36It's technically it can come to an end.

30:39And statistically, more than half the time it does anyways.

30:43So, yeah, there's that dynamic as well.

30:46Right. Right. And your spouse is going to mark your return to sender.

30:52And I like how you said don't make promises you can't keep, because now you have the person using who's promising probably every day.

30:59I'm going to stop. I'm not doing it. Lying about doing it.

31:02And then you have, you know, the family who's threatening, you know, I'm going to do this.

31:07I'm going to do that. And the person using is like, oh, yeah, they're never going to leave me.

31:10They're never going to do this. They keep saying it. They're not doing it.

31:13And then I see how it can turn into just a whole big.

31:16Everybody is just saying things that they don't mean and nobody really.

31:21And part of it is, you know, going back to that, you know, I know people make fun of me for picking on this.

31:27But it's a really important part of the brain that dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

31:32You know, part of the issue, part of this, this, these techniques involves you have a part of the brain that is not dead.

31:38But it's minimally functional. And how functional it is will depend on the time of day.

31:43And if you're trying to get something to register in that part of the brain, in this case, you're trying to.

31:52Demonstrate or illustrate or describe a consequence that's going to register, that's going to make that brain go, oh, oh, that would be bad.

31:59Yeah. And when somebody. So.

32:02So first, you got to have, again, the list of these are the potential consequences about people who can deliver these consequences.

32:08And if they're severe enough, it'll register. But only if it actually happens.

32:13Because if it if it doesn't, if they can't follow through with it, then it just it just goes away.

32:17They just doesn't register. Then it just doesn't exist. If anything, it would have been able to make it worse.

32:21Yeah. Better off not saying something that you can't deliver and saying something.

32:25And they're not going to do this. It's just a steamroll ahead.

32:28But, you know, for a viewer, that's like kind of the technique is trying to instill.

32:32I like to pick on survivable consequences.

32:35One that's not going to like, you know, you don't want to kill the person you want.

32:38You prefer to not destroy their career or destroy a marriage or a relationship, but get something that will register.

32:45That will get them to realize, oh, well, this is this is serious.

32:47This is more severe than my usual day to day consequence.

32:51OK, I got to I got to look at what's happening. I got to take a look here.

32:54This is an an alternate threat to my survival.

33:00Correct. And I think that that's it.

33:03Is that, you know, on one hand, they're saying I can't survive without this, this trick or the struggle or whatever it is.

33:09But you're you're the consequences challenging them.

33:14But what can you survive with?

33:17Well, so it was something that will equally challenge their survival.

33:21You know, like getting a place to live, you know, money.

33:24So and then Doc said the big word, enabling, enabling.

33:28How much enabling do you see in interventions?

33:31Of course. But, you know, parents don't even realize they're doing.

33:36Well, enabling it, I mean, I always kind of describe it as it's misguided love.

33:41I love they love this person.

33:43And parents want to protect, you know, and sometimes spouses want to preserve the relationship.

33:47And it's it's a love that you're not protecting.

33:50I keep it going and it's misguided because they don't realize, OK, what you're doing is actually making it worse.

33:56Because you're going up, you're trying to apply love in a logical way to the apex pressure part of the brain, which is not logical.

34:06It follows feeling and it has a different thought process, has a different order of priority.

34:14Yeah, it's still focused primarily on procuring that which it thinks it needs most to survive, whatever the substance is, rather than preserving the other elements of life.

34:25As with addiction, people lose sight of the other elements of life.

34:28They get so fixated on this one, this red button.

34:32This is what is going to make me feel better and help me cope and survive.

34:37They get fixated on that. They lose sight of everything else around them.

34:40Yes. And all the relationships suffer. It's true that that's right.

34:44Their life becomes very small. You're right.

34:47It's misguided love. I tell parents that we inadvertently hurt our children.

34:54We don't mean to, but we do. We think we're saving them and we're not.

34:59We think on some level that if we do what they want, they'll be happy. And they're not.

35:09I always joke that my daughter's closing rate is like 99%.

35:15We want to make them happy. We want to give them what they want.

35:20We think if we give them the next thing that they're asking for, that'll work.

35:24And then that comes up to the whole question of codependency, right?

35:30Yes. That is a big factor, both with enabling and other complex, maladaptive situations.

35:38How does that come up in your work, the codependency, and how does that interfere?

35:42Yeah, well, that's it.

35:45If I give you what you want, you'll be happy and then I'll get what I want.

35:55Codependency, I think, in a way, is very self-evident.

35:58Once I got sober, I got a handle on my program and my recovery.

36:06I started to engage Al-Anon, which is really a program about codependency.